Steve Forbes Interview: How ING Direct’s Arkadi Kuhlmann Became The “CEO Of Savings” ~ MAKE MONEY BLOG$

How ING Stays Ahead

Steve Forbes:Arkadi, good to have you with us. Before we get to banking, are you still riding motorcycles?

Arkadi Kuhlmann: Yes, I am. And we know there’s a bit of Forbes history when it comes to motorcycles. I’m riding a Harley Deuce, and it’s probably one of the last places where a guy like me can get some wind through his hair, and can actually maybe see the road without a lot of glass around it.

Forbes: Do you go to biker conventions?

Kuhlmann: No. But I do have one dream left. You know, guys always have to have some target out there, some ambition. I would like to go to Sturgis.

Forbes: I was going to ask you that.

Kuhlmann: I was going to see those black hills. I just want to sort of see what it’s like when a whole bunch of people get together.

Forbes: So, if you’re a mountain climber, it’s Everest. If you’re a biker, it’s Sturgis, right?

Kuhlmann: Sturgis, I think you’re right. I’m not exactly sure that I could get through the whole experience, but it’d be kind of nice to just see what it’s like to get together for no other reason than just getting together.

Forbes: Well, ING Direct. Ten years ago, 12 years ago, a real pioneer. You’ve now attracted competitors.

Kuhlmann: Yeah.

Forbes: Who are those competitors, and what are you doing to stay ahead? First, describe how big you are. Give people dimension that you’ve really done the thing.

Kuhlmann: Yeah. Well, ING Direct today is the 15th largest bank in the country. We are the largest virtual community bank in the country, is the way I like to describe it. We have 7.7 million customers, $92 billion in assets. Been profitable since year two, and are just in our 11th year.

All that growth has been organic, and it’s all retail. We wanted to prove to the regulators, and the people in Washington, that you could do a bank using today’s technology and marketing knowhow in a different way, and that it would work. So, we wanted to put the scores on the board and say that we could create a different kind of retail bank, which is all focused around retails products, without branches. We wanted to do it simply and straightforward, and we wanted to cater to Main Street America, the 270 million Americans who are basically not getting a fair shake.

So, we let the 9,400 banks in this country serve the 30 million rich Americans, and we would try to serve the 270 million Americans on Main Street. And we’re going to do that with high volume, low margin, commodities standardized product, and follow a pure retail model.

Forbes: I believe you’ve said that if you want a lot of hand-holding, your bank is not the place to go.

Kuhlmann: Well, I think the phrase was actually, “If you want a relationship, go get a dog.” I think that was the phrase.

Forbes: I’m sure there are pithier ways to put even that.

Kuhlmann: Well, the idea was that, I think if you want to get advice – and there’s places where people do need good advice – and you want education, there’s places to do that. But we wanted to basically get our cost down. We wanted to actually be a cost competitor in the business.

So we wanted to run our costs at one-third of the normal bank, and our revenue at half the industry, and have about the same return on equity. We’ve been able to accomplish that.

Flipping The Model

Forbes: You’ve pointed out that a typical bank will spend $300+ to get a customer. You spend $90, even though at one point, you were offering $25 on little CDs.

Kuhlmann: Yeah, well, that’s a little coupon. Actually, the true acquisition cost now is about $50. And one of those wonderful things, the myths – one of the great things about America is our ability to use the technology and ingenuity to basically reengineer things and reinvent them.

So my philosophy was reengineer the product, reengineer the process and then reengineer the customer. And reengineering the product was coming up with a product that is standardized, that you don’t need to actually learn how to use. It’s just intuitive.

The process was taking 14 steps to open an account and turning it into three. And then reengineer the customer, make sure the customer that is in front of you is a customer that you can actually get a positive experience with. What I want to do is make sure that you can be happy when I see you. We have this in other retailing, where people understand what you get in a restaurant versus what you get in a takeout. When it comes to banking, everybody thinks they get everything. And so, we basically do not do any of that advice or hand holding.

Forbes: You’ve compared it to Costco. When you go to Costco, you’re going to buy four bottles of Listerine.

Kuhlmann: Yeah, that’s it exactly. You’ve got to get that straight. People understand that in other retailing, but they don’t understand it in banking or financial services. And so we’re saying, “Look, if you really know what you want and there’s no VIP lineup and everybody gets the same rate, a lot of magic happens.” And the magic that happens is I basically get a great price with no fees, and so it’s very cost effective for what you want. And the other thing is that from a business point of view you’re going to get happy customers. We have the highest net promoter score, the highest number of satisfaction.

Forbes: So, is this true still: 43% of your customers are by word of mouth, or social networking as we call it today?

Kuhlmann: Yes, it’s 41% word of mouth. And the other comment that I think you’d find interesting is that 18% of our customers are actually employees of other banks.

Forbes: Reminds me of teachers in public schools sending their kids to private school. But I’m going to get into politics now.

Kuhlmann: Yes, yes, but I think there are some of those things. And so this is an important experiment for America. We have 9,400 banks, they’re all doing everything the same way.

Forbes: Even Allied Bank?

Kuhlmann: Allied Bank is trying to copy us. And I hate competing with someone that’s owned by the government. It would be a little bit more fair game, I think, if we got the government out of some of these things, and we had a chance to take a fair run at them.

But, look, I also like the category, though. This is pretty important; everybody else is a universal bank, a traditional bank. We’re much more narrowly focused in our products. We do mortgages and we do savings – a very old fashioned concept, but in a very new electronic way.

Forbes: Credit cards?

Kuhlmann: No credit cards. We have something called the Electric Orange, which is a payment card, which is kind of interesting. But we want to be different than everybody else. We want people to have a choice. And we have to prove to the regulators, and to investors, that we can actually operate within the realms of what regulation needs. And that’s why this experiment is important to America.

Mobile Banking

Forbes: Now, in terms of staying ahead of the competition, because all the banks go online.

Kuhlmann: Yeah.

Forbes: Describe some of the new things you’re doing. Everyone understands mobile, but do you think you can do something different?

Kuhlmann: Yeah. Look, mobile – that’s the new real estate. We have 650,000 customers already that are running pure mobile. So those little icons, those little apps, are really the corner of the future, if you will, the corner store of the future.

We have Bump, of course, which is one of the new kind of methodologies that keep leapfrogging. It used to go from online and then it got into e-mailing money, right? And then it’s p-to-p. Now we basically log on an app, I put in the money that I owe you, we knock the devices together and the money transfers to you. And then it gets cleared in the background.

Forbes: What’s that going to do to Pay Pal?

Kuhlmann: Well, it’s going to give them a bit of heartburn, but you know, that’s what innovation’s all about, right? I like the idea of leapfrogging. I believe in American ingenuity is about doing it right here, and doing it in a faster, cleverer way. So, we don’t outsource, we don’t offshore anything.

We basically do it right here, and our job is to get rid of the paper. But I’ve got to convince you, as a consumer, that if I get rid of the paper it’s going actually save you money, not just save me money.

But it’s also going to be done the way that you actually find intuitively easy to do. So, now that people are doing boarding passes with their cell phones, and they’re booking restaurants, and they’re trying to find out whether their flight’s going to arrive, well, why can’t we be in the middle of that, and actually use that to help transfer money?

Banking Changes On The Way

Forbes: You made the observation, in terms of outsiders, that when an innovation comes along, people think, “Well, we’ll do the same old thing, only we do it faster, better, like the old days.” Autos come along – horseless carriage. Well, yes, but there was a little more to it than that. Or media, we take printed page, put it online, we’ve got electronic media.No, different animal.

So therefore, people who are not in banking often can see what opens up. What are the changes you see coming, that are going to do to traditional banks what the Internet has done to media?

Kuhlmann: Well, I think one of the big things is the way that people basically interact with money, right? I think there’s a fundamental rethinking about money. It is amazing how people now rethink about savings which, ten years ago, wasn’t very sexy.

Matter of fact, it was all about what you can get for $229 a month on payments. People are rethinking about balancing budgets, they’re rethinking about using electronics and how they basically can store their information offline.

Because we never did a good job with paper. We’re thinking now about moving money around in different kinds of universal accounts. We’re trying to find groups of people that actually have common interests. And we’re finding that the money players, like ourselves, are actually creating content. 30 years ago, you and I are talking about, well, maybe Microsoftwill become the biggest bank in the world. Because it was all about information and they were going to manage the information, and you can just attach money to it.

But I think what’s happening – it’s going actually – two way streets. Who actually controls the regulated switch, ends up creating content. And so one of our big plans is that customers are coming to us and saying, “We love ING Direct. We know how simple it is to do that. And because you’ve convinced us that you’re basically very simple and straightforward and online, I’d like to do some other things with you, which are content oriented. So, please tell me now what you think about the budget. Tell me what you think about politics.”

And now, all of the sudden, we’ve got a brand voice to speak on issues that are actually interesting to society. And that’s not much different than what a publisher does.

The ING Cafes

Forbes: Uh-oh. In terms of, before we get to that. You do have things called Cafes.

Kuhlmann: Yes, yes.

Forbes: What’s that all about? I thought this was supposed to be just online.

Kuhlmann: No, but you’d love this, Steve. This is, I think, really in terms of where I think Forbes is. Look, the best efficient way to do this is through technology, and to do it virtually, right? Because you don’t want to line up, you don’t want to park, you want to do this very straightforward. But there’s this thing about money, which is very human, and it goes back to 1603, when the first cafes were organized in Florence. When shippers and receivers got together, and they settled up. That’s where, actually, the tea accounts were created.

And so, in our world, people see out there as this virtual thing in the sky. But they want to know, are there real Americans here? Are there real places for us to talk about money? So they come into the Café. They’re not branches, there’s no selling going on, just a place to hang out, get a great value proposition, buy a cup of coffee and talk about money.

Talk about investing. Talk about the country. Right? These are places where people get together socially, and they’re sponsored by a financial institution. Which I think is actually the old, classical way of cafes – in creating little snippets of community.

Forbes: So, your own personnel are not there?

Kuhlmann: Yes, they are.

Forbes: Okay.

Kuhlmann: There are our people there, but they make a great cappuccino. And there’s a great piece of pastry for you there, and you can do some reading if you want. But we’re not going to bother you. We’re not going to, basically, try to intrude on your privacy.

We’re going to try to get you to come around. And a lot of people, basically, have come to our Cafes three or four times, and they said, “ING Direct, that sounds like an Indonesian courier company.” And they don’t even know it’s a bank, right? Because we’re not trying to be a bank, we’re trying to be a retailer that is basically helping people with money.

Forbes: Now, what kind of financial institutions are sponsoring this?

Kuhlmann: Well, we are part of ING Group, which is listed on the New York Stock Exchange, in ADRs. The group is going through some big transitions now. But the rest of the market – we used to have competition with some small sort of start ups. There’s been many of them that look alike.

But if you think about this, Steve, you think about Southwest Airlines, Ikea, Costco, you think about Amazon and Dell and so on – there generally isn’t more than one or two in the category that really begin to make the changes.

And then the rest of industry begins to adopt them slowly, bit by bit by bit. So, right now, my biggest competitors are the Wells Fargos, the Bank of Americas, Citibanks. They’re all trying to come up with different versions of what we’re doing, and trying to change their retail propositions in terms of how they segment customers, decide on customer profitability and change the game. And I think right now, I love the footrace. Because it’s now all about mobile. And we’re going to see who’s going to go mobile, and how mainstream that gets.

I think we’re out in the lead of the pack. I think the little guy taking on the big guy is pure Americana, and I love it. And all the people that work with me – they say, “Why do you want to work here? We just love the challenge of the underdog.”

Friend of Investors?

Forbes: You’re going to be friends to the investor, as well?

Kuhlmann: Yes. You might’ve heard about ShareBuilder. It was the only acquisition we did, and I thought it was a real score, because it was technology that was originally owned by Merrill Lynch, back in the ’70s. And it was the ability to buy fractional shares. And so I thought to myself, “I know how the top end of the market is served by a lot of investment options, and advice and lots of places. But how do we get the 270 million other Americans into the investment game?”

So, I was teaching them how to be savers, first. And then I thought, well, if you’re a saver, how can I get you to actually buy a stock, or buy an equity, or something that isn’t too expensive, doesn’t have a lot of fees, but sort of fits in the way you think?

And I talked to a lot of people, and they said, “I don’t know about buying 100 shares. But I’ve got $50 to invest.” And I said, “Okay, if I can get you to buy $50 or $100 a month in a plan, in an automatic investment plan, would you like to buy a couple of stocks that you know?” Back to the Lynch kind of approach, right? And they said, “Oh, yeah, I know Target, and I know Dell” – and my son, by the way, he actually picked Tootsie Roll, he loves Tootsie Rolls, so he went out and picked out Tootsie Rolls. And he’s buying $20 of Tootsie Roll every month. And I thought to myself, we’ve got mutual funds, we’ve got stocks, and we’ve got ETFs.

Forbes: So the only thing is we’re going to make obese is his bank account, not his belly.

Kuhlmann: Probably, exactly right. And so, this is another way for people to basically get into the market, get into understanding investing and companies, right? But get them in at the seedling level, and get them to basically see that over time they can get a lot of the advantages that you would get out of mutual funds, or out of ETFs, or whatever, as another good way of getting into the market.

Forbes: So should Charles Schwab worry about you?

Kuhlmann: Oh, yeah, Chuck should worry about me. And I love Chuck. By the way, I’m also a customer of Schwab, so I’ve got to tell you that, too.

Forbes: It’s nothing personal.

Kuhlmann: No, no, no, I love Schwab. And the reason was because we owe a great debt to Chuck, because of the way he started Schwab in the ’70s. He was a discount broker, right? And he’s gone to where he is. And we’re following in his footsteps.

We’re doing in banking what he did in stock broking. Except I tend to laugh a little bit about Chuck and say, well, “Why don’t you do what we do in banking, because you know how to do it real well in stock broking.” So, we’re going to see whether or not banking and stock broking can both move along the line in the right way, and try to dis-intermediate the market.

Security & Fraud

Forbes: Security and fraud. Hackers and the like. Do you have any particular problems there? How do you deal with that?

Kuhlmann: Yeah. It’s a big issue for this country, and we spend a lot of time, because security and reputation and integrity is all that you have online. Because it goes with a click. We do not have a very good regulatory framework around what we can do to protect our financial system.

I mean, I’m glad that we’re doing the airports and the ports, right? But electronically, we’re open to the world. And I can’t reach anybody beyond the legal jurisdiction of the United States for hackers. We have over 25,000 hackers a day, attacks on the system. We spend a lot of money on that. We have to work a lot with our customers, to educate them in terms of putting in the filters and the software protections.

Forbes: Right.

Kuhlmann: It’s a big reeducation with people, because on the one hand they like the safety of it, but they don’t want the aggravation of security.

Forbes: Right.

Kuhlmann: And so, it is a real point of friction. But there’s no way around this. We have no choice. And we need to make a lot more gains in Washington about getting us, in a legitimate way, to identify Americans. It is a travesty, on the banking integrity of the industry, that I cannot bank with you because I can’t identify who you are. All I would want to know is that you’re a legitimate American. I can’t rely on social security numbers.

To find out who you are, Steve Forbes, I’ve got to triangulate you. And while that’s kind of interesting, it is open to a lot of question in terms of – am I dealing with the right person? And if the world is going to go more and more electronic, the United States needs to find a framework that says we can provide the framework integrity so at least you know who you’re dealing with. The risk of what’s involved with that, that’s your problem. But at least you know who you’re dealing with.

Forbes: You talking about a national ID card?

Kuhlmann: Absolutely. Absolutely. We need it. I mean, I would’ve been happy with a social security number, except I got seven and a half million fraudulent ones. And we don’t even have – state-wise, driver’s licenses aren’t even up there. It’s going up in slow, slow stages, but it is a real dilemma to the future productivity of the country.

Watch Steve Forbes’ interview with Arkadi Kuhlmann.

Kuhlmann, Mortgage Czar

Forbes: You’ve had some thoughts on mortgages.

Kuhlmann: Yeah.

Forbes: You have said that 30 year mortgage – glorified renting. A lot of interest, but very little equity. At your own bank, you make it very clear: Five years fixed, then it gets readjusted.

Kuhlmann: Yeah. Yeah.

Forbes: So you don’t have that disconnect, in terms of deposits and the loans.

Kuhlmann: Right.

Forbes: If you were a – I hate to use the word “czar” – in terms of mortgages, would you decree 20 years instead of 30?

Kuhlmann: No, I’m okay with the amortization period of 30. I think somebody just got the fixed interest rate period mixed up with the amortization, and then convinced the whole American public that that’s the way it’s supposed to be.

I find it ironic that the only one thing that we need guarantee in this country is a 30 year fixed. We can’t guarantee our health, our marriage, our job or anything else, but the one thing we want to die for is a 30 year fixed interest rate. And the problem with that is that if you do a bi-weekly pay, which we, for instance, do, we cut that amortization down from 30 years to 23.

Just do a bi-monthly pay. A five year fixed. The people that got our mortgages in 2003, they dropped their rate from 5% to under 3% in 2008, in the middle of the financial crisis.

If you have equity in your home, and you basically have an adjustable rate mortgage on a five year fixed, you can refinance it any time you want, lock it in for another five years. And you can basically put that money towards paying down the equity in your home, which is what we’re all about, right? Get equity back in your home, get back into ownership, which I think is fundamental to this country. And the most important thing for you and I, Steve, is that I want these mortgages back on the balance sheets of the 9,400 institutions around this country. If the mortgages were on the balance sheets of the local community banks that they’re serving in, we would not have a national housing crisis.

I wouldn’t be feeding all this heroin into Wall Street. That’s 70 basis point that gets fed into Wall Street, right? There’s an interesting upside option. But the downside option, the taxpayer pays.

So, when the mortgages go wrong, when the houses go wrong? The taxpayer picks it up, as we did in ‘92, as we’re doing now. If it goes up, then everybody makes some equity, which is fine. We need to get rid of the 30 year mortgage. It’s the root of all evil, it’s driving the wrong fuel into Wall Street.

Forbes: In addition, would you require 20% down?

Kuhlmann: Yeah. I think there are cases you could do a 10% down, so it wouldn’t be that egregious. But you’ve got to have some skin in the game. And I understand why we have, for instance, deductibility on interest in mortgages, because we’re trying to make the mortgages affordable.

Forbes: But you would do it with principal, right?

Kuhlmann: Right. Because what we’re now doing with the after tax money – we’re buying a pickup truck. Which I’m okay with, as far as consumption’s concerned, but my view as principal – I’d like to speak to Americans and say, “Shouldn’t your home be your biggest savings account?” Okay? That should be your fall back. Invest, please. Invest money, build small business and everything else, but the homestead – why would you want to put that to risk?

Up For Reelection

Forbes: Before we go, you have some notions on leadership. Did you put yourself up for reelection?

Kuhlmann: Yes, I did. And it’s been my view, as a leader, to serve. And I’m privileged to lead this mission about leading Americans back to savings. I believe in it, I’m passionate about it. I do need to get the vote of confidence from my customers, because they’re the ones that basically determine my net promoter’s score and whether or not they’re happy. The shareholders and the board, basically, are the ones that determine whether or not I stay. But the people I really care about are the people I work with. And I think I need to hold myself accountable to them. And I need, basically, to say, “Are you okay with me leading you, serving with you for another year?” I think I need that endorsement. As a businessman.

Forbes: So, are you going to do this each year?

Kuhlmann: Yes, I am.

Forbes: And you did it in December?

Kuhlmann: Yes, I did.

Forbes: Did you win – by what margin did you win the vote? Of course, nobody was running against you.

Kuhlmann: No, no. No, it’s not a democratic vote, in that sense.,The job isn’t up for nomination. But we have 2,500 employees. The voting was open for one day, and only two questions were asked.

One was, “Do you believe in the mission?” And, “Would you like me to serve for another year?” That’s all that was asked. Not a big conversation. And you could open up, and basically it was a third party that basically did the tabulation, and we had 1,140 votes. So almost 50% voted. And I think, luckily, this year I got 13 no votes.

Forbes: Without Soviet style counting.

Kuhlmann: I have no idea. But the one thing is, there was an interesting conversation that says, what would be a percentage that would constitute confidence? Because obviously it isn’t that normal type of voting. But we agreed, collectively among us, with my colleagues, that I’d have to get at least 80%. I mean, if this is a confidence vote about leadership, it isn’t about 51%.

Okay? It’s about, can you at least get 80%? And I was very honored to get that. And we don’t make a big deal about it, but it gets me working harder, because I know that I’ve got to continue to serve the people that I work with.

Forbes: Now, when times are tough, what goodies can you give them to make them vote for you? Free fruit? Or what can you offer up?

Kuhlmann: No, no. See, but good old American ingenuity – what you give those people is love and hugs and kisses. I mean, you’ve got to hug the wives and kiss the babies. Look, I think people get passionate about the mission. It isn’t only about the money. That’s important, too. But people need to feel that they’re doing something good for society.

And they like that we have a platform to talk about. I mean, the Forbesmagazine is pretty clear about what it stands for, and what it tries to promote. We need these voices on the stage. Why can’t that voice also be from a bank?

And so, when you talk to our employees, and they say, “Well, what do you think about this place?” They’re going to start talking to you about savings, and about fees, and they’re going to talk about a fair deal. And they’re going to talk about no fine print and those things. That’s why they’re working there. They want to make a difference.

Forbes: Now, eight years ago, ten years ago, could you have won a vote with only 13 no votes? You, yourself have said at one time in your life, “This is the way it is, my way or the highway.”

Kuhlmann: Yeah. That’s true. I may not have won every one of those votes, you’re probably right. And then I’d be out, trying it somewhere else. But I think over the years, I have had many votes, but not in this electronic format. In previous years, I’ve had a lot of votes by hand, in town halls.

But there are times where I think things were tough. But I think, as a leader, I think you’ve got to basically take that as a personal commitment, right? It isn’t guaranteed. You’ve got to earn it every day, and as every good sports player does, you may be voted out. And I think you’ve got to go with a bit of grace and take the message.

To Lead, You Must Follow

Forbes: Now, you’ve also said to be a good leader, you have to know how to follow.

Kuhlmann: Yes.

Forbes: Have you been a follower? Sounds like you’ve been a leader all your life.

Kuhlmann: No, it’s not true. I’ve gotten where I’ve gotten because of some tremendous mentors. If I think back on my college days, there are a couple of professors that I worked for as research associates.

People have given me opportunities, to basically take on a task and make an achievement. That was done at the Royal Bank by Dave Maltby, who’s a tremendous individual. And people have given me the opportunity to take something on, and I have followed them. And I’ve learned from them. And that’s given me a great sense, Steve, of needing to give back. You know, if someone said to me, “Well, why do you think you’re a good leader?” It’s because I am totally committed to giving back. And I’m giving back because people have given me great opportunities and they’ve shown great leadership.

Forbes: You once said that in terms of working for ING Direct, that given the turmoil that’s out in the world of technology, you want to hire difficult people.

Kuhlmann: Yes.

Forbes: What happens if they are difficult? How do you handle them?

Kuhlmann: Well, the short answer is, you don’t. You’re buying chaos, and you’re going to have it. But I like that. I like different people and the diversity. Because I, myself, am an outsider. So, I’m pretty clear that as an outsider, that’s where I belong. And I try to look beyond the trimmings of people – the clothes and whether or not you wear sandals or shoes or how you cut your hair.

Forbes: Ride motorcycles.

Kuhlmann: Ride motorcycles. That kind of stuff. Because I believe that people that are difficult or are a little bit out of the ordinary or whatever, bring a kind of vitality and a kind of thought to a mission that I think is really critical.

I think there’s too much sort of group-think, and in-think, and I think you need this diversity. And the diversity of ideas around a table like this is what’s going to get you into a better plan, and probably into a better commitment to make it happen.

Forbes: So, do you really have the tolerance for that kind of difficulty? Takes you out of your comfort zone.

Kuhlmann: Yeah, it does. There are evenings I go home frustrated as anything, thinking I’d like to maybe go back to academics. There are other days I’m on too much of a high, that I probably shouldn’t be on. Yeah, it’s frustrating. It’s emotionally draining.

But the other thing that happens over this, though, is you build some really great bonds. I mean, there are people I work with right now that I have no compunction to say that I absolutely love them. They’re wonderful people.

And they’re very different than me. I mean this is not a collection of guys that go together and play tennis on the weekend, and go to their old alma mater, right? I mean, this is a pretty eclectic group of people. But then, if you’re going to take on the big banks in my industry, right – there’s no point having a collection of another bunch of bankers.

Regulators

Forbes: One final, final question. Talk about regulators. Are they now more tolerant of you, since they’ve got a few other banks to worry about these days?

Kuhlmann: Well, I think the short answer is that they’re struggling with the issues. We’ve gone through the stress tests. Certainly, there’s bigger fish to fry than us, because we’re pretty straightforward.

But they’re also very concerned that because we’re so narrow, and we’re a bit of a mono-line. We’re not as easy to oversee and regulate as some of the more universal, traditional banks. And in that score, we’re a bit of an odd lot. And regulators, by definition, don’t like odd lots. So, we’re trying to come up with a plan that basically gets us more in line with where we think, overall, regulation’s going.

But the good thing is – and this is what the regulators see – is that all the new things coming down from Dodd Frank and from the Card Act and everything else like that, we didn’t need to change one thing. We didn’t change any products. We didn’t need to change any of our things because on the right side of where that regulation’s going, we’re already there.

Forbes: So, you’ve got another book in the works? Here’s Orange Code.

Kuhlmann: Yes.

Forbes: The Orange Code. “The,” not “An,” Orange Code.

Kuhlmann: Yes.

Forbes: On sale on Amazon.

Kuhlmann: Yes.

Forbes: You going to do another one?

Kuhlmann: Yes, the other one. My next book’s coming out in May, called Rock Then Roll, The Secrets of Culture Driven Leadership. So, I’m pretty excited about the next book.

Forbes: Well, that’s another form of election, putting a book out in the marketplace.

Kuhlmann: Yes, it is.

Forbes: Arkadi, thank you very much.

Kuhlmann: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me here.

Watch Steve Forbes’ interview with Arkadi Kuhlmann.

source:Forbes.com
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